XL, 2DS, New 3DS, etc

Nyaako
Posts: 67
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 5:27 am

Re: XL, 2DS, New 3DS, etc

Post by Nyaako » Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:46 am

Wolf wrote:Yes, you would need a capture card to record with hdmi out. And that is another device you would need which is less simple. However, how many streamers exclusively stream 3ds content? Odds are if you are a streamer you will also be doing at least one console like the ps4, xbox 1, switch, ect and if that is true then you should already have a hdmi capture card to record over hdmi.

So my solution would be simpler to implement for the developer, as well as any streamers that don't exclusively do 3ds content (I'm betting that is almost the entirety of them).

And once again the market for people that want to play handheld devices on big screen displays is far bigger than just the streaming market. So not only would this be simpler on the developer and not matter to many of the existing customers (and if it did it isn't like the other mod for the old school 3ds would be discontinued) it also opens up an entirely new (and far more profitable) group of people to sell to. A lot of people would be interested in playing ds and 3ds games in 2d mode on a big screen.
Okay, now where did you pull that out from? Any sources? Because, as far as I know, the only demand for a "handheld" device on big screen is the Switch and not exactly the 3DS. If you're gonna talk about the Vita, then there's the PSTV, but even that isn't as popular as the 3DS or Switch. The majority of people that I've seen so far that do want to own a 3DS capture card are those that want to record/stream 3DS gameplay footage. Not to play it on the "big screen". There's no actual benefits on playing 3DS games on a HD monitor when the 3DS can only output 400x240 (800x240 with 3D on) for games.

Also, even Tecd0c, the guy that works in the European side for 3DS capture cards, has already said that:
"To me it does not make sense, with HDMI you would need another way of recording it again. So your "simple solution" ends up just displaying a screen not beeing able to record or stream.
In my understanding this is 99% customers want, not just having one screen on a bigger display..."

From what he mentioned, only a few minority people would want to get a 3DS capture card to play on a big screen while the majority wants to get a 3DS capture card to record/stream, which makes more sense. Why do you think it's called a capture card like Elgato and whatnot? Their main purpose is to capture footage.

Wolf
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Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:15 pm

Re: XL, 2DS, New 3DS, etc

Post by Wolf » Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:17 am

Nyaako wrote:
Wolf wrote:Yes, you would need a capture card to record with hdmi out. And that is another device you would need which is less simple. However, how many streamers exclusively stream 3ds content? Odds are if you are a streamer you will also be doing at least one console like the ps4, xbox 1, switch, ect and if that is true then you should already have a hdmi capture card to record over hdmi.

So my solution would be simpler to implement for the developer, as well as any streamers that don't exclusively do 3ds content (I'm betting that is almost the entirety of them).

And once again the market for people that want to play handheld devices on big screen displays is far bigger than just the streaming market. So not only would this be simpler on the developer and not matter to many of the existing customers (and if it did it isn't like the other mod for the old school 3ds would be discontinued) it also opens up an entirely new (and far more profitable) group of people to sell to. A lot of people would be interested in playing ds and 3ds games in 2d mode on a big screen.
Okay, now where did you pull that out from? Any sources? Because, as far as I know, the only demand for a "handheld" device on big screen is the Switch and not exactly the 3DS. If you're gonna talk about the Vita, then there's the PSTV, but even that isn't as popular as the 3DS or Switch. The majority of people that I've seen so far that do want to own a 3DS capture card are those that want to record/stream 3DS gameplay footage. Not to play it on the "big screen". There's no actual benefits on playing 3DS games on a HD monitor when the 3DS can only output 400x240 (800x240 with 3D on) for games.

Also, even Tecd0c, the guy that works in the European side for 3DS capture cards, has already said that:
"To me it does not make sense, with HDMI you would need another way of recording it again. So your "simple solution" ends up just displaying a screen not beeing able to record or stream.
In my understanding this is 99% customers want, not just having one screen on a bigger display..."

From what he mentioned, only a few minority people would want to get a 3DS capture card to play on a big screen while the majority wants to get a 3DS capture card to record/stream, which makes more sense. Why do you think it's called a capture card like Elgato and whatnot? Their main purpose is to capture footage.
It is common sense that more people play games than those that stream them. For example if a streamer has 10k people watching them play something then it would be reasonable to assume that most of those 10k people probably have some interest in playing that game. If you don't believe me then go to some nintendo forum and start a poll asking if people would like the option to play their 3ds on a big screen.

And of course the vita isn't as popular as the 3ds, not by miles. And the pstv was straight up broken. Most games it could support it didn't. You had to hack it just to get it to work with most games. On top of that the 3ds/2ds family is incredibly more popular than the vita, having sold multiple times more units. And guess what? Opening week in Japan the pstv sold 42,000+ units. One region, one week, several times less popular than the 3ds (not even factoring in the ds appeal) and it sold 42,000 units. What do you want to bet that the current mod hasn't sold that many units?

Tecd0c is clearly incorrect about what more people want. And once again, this mod still exists for the incredibly few people that would specifically want to record the bottom screen/record without a capture card compared to the literal millions that would want to play on a big screen.

My point was they could move far more units with a hdmi or mini displayport out, people could still record the top screen with a capture card which they probably own anyways if they are a streamer, and it is incredibly simpler to do.

As for not having any benefits to the player... it's about the experience. I have plenty of 240p consoles like the atari 2600/5200/7800, nes, sega master system, game gear, gameboy/color, ect and I play all of those systems on a 4k screen and they look fantastic. Some cellphones have 4k screens now and fit in your pocket. Saying that playing a 240p game on a 50" display has nothing to offer is like saying you should never play 4k pc or ps4 games on anything bigger than a cellphone screen because that is all the space you need.

808Fox
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Re: XL, 2DS, New 3DS, etc

Post by 808Fox » Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:28 am

While I agree that a possible demand exists where people would want to play on a bigger screen. There are technical limitations and workarounds that would need to be done.

1) The hardware on the card would need to encode the screen signal into a compatible HDMI signal for a television/monitor/capture device to receive.
2) The hardware on the card would need to be able to do the above at a supported resolution. Most modern TVs will only support 720p and up.

I've got no knowledge of the technical specifications of the cards, so I can't say whether or not the existing cards can do that already...

3) This solution, as you suggested, will only allow the top screen to be captured, thus forcing Loopy (or anyone else) to develop two capture cards one for PC and one for HDMI to allow continued support for streamers.
4) HDMI cables (even mini HDMI) have larger plugs. This means larger ports than the currently used Micro USB port. This means more destruction to the 3DS case.
5) Micro USB cables are, for the most part, cheaper than and easier to get access to and are thinner/less cumbersome. Plus I assume you want to connect to a Television that would be somewhat across a room. Long HDMI cables get stupid expensive.
6) Almost everyone has a PC anyway.

With the above in mind, someone -could- develop some sort of hardware/software solution that may use something like the raspberry to simply take the 3DS capture input via USB and output it to some standard HDMI.

One final note. I believe the HDMI solution already exists, as if I recall correctly, Loopy has already made a few way back when, and I think Katsukitty currently sells variants of their builds. However, demand probably wasn't there, or it wasn't cost efficient for Loopy to do it.

Wolf
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:15 pm

Re: XL, 2DS, New 3DS, etc

Post by Wolf » Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:42 am

808Fox wrote:While I agree that a possible demand exists where people would want to play on a bigger screen. There are technical limitations and workarounds that would need to be done.

1) The hardware on the card would need to encode the screen signal into a compatible HDMI signal for a television/monitor/capture device to receive.
2) The hardware on the card would need to be able to do the above at a supported resolution. Most modern TVs will only support 720p and up.

I've got no knowledge of the technical specifications of the cards, so I can't say whether or not the existing cards can do that already...

3) This solution, as you suggested, will only allow the top screen to be captured, thus forcing Loopy (or anyone else) to develop two capture cards one for PC and one for HDMI to allow continued support for streamers.
4) HDMI cables (even mini HDMI) have larger plugs. This means larger ports than the currently used Micro USB port. This means more destruction to the 3DS case.
5) Micro USB cables are, for the most part, cheaper than and easier to get access to and are thinner/less cumbersome. Plus I assume you want to connect to a Television that would be somewhat across a room. Long HDMI cables get stupid expensive.
6) Almost everyone has a PC anyway.

With the above in mind, someone -could- develop some sort of hardware/software solution that may use something like the raspberry to simply take the 3DS capture input via USB and output it to some standard HDMI.

One final note. I believe the HDMI solution already exists, as if I recall correctly, Loopy has already made a few way back when, and I think Katsukitty currently sells variants of their builds. However, demand probably wasn't there, or it wasn't cost efficient for Loopy to do it.
1) I would imagine the signal would already be hdmi compatible as long as it was in 2d mode.
2) That is a problem with some tvs so it is true the user would need a tv that can do that or an external upscaling device like the xrgb mini.
3) Only if they wanted/needed to capture the bottom screen which isn't that important to watch in most games. Also plenty of capture cards exist for hdmi, no one has to develop a new one.
4) That is why I suggested mini displayport out. It is a smaller plug size and hdmi compatible. 15 feet should be plenty of room and the amazon brand cable costs $14. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0134V48JK
5) See #4
6) I don't see how everyone having a pc is relevant. Unless you are saying people should use the current capture program to play the game which is a terrible experience as it isn't designed for that. The feed records with a considerable amount of lag added and trying to react to images as you see them on the pc with the current mod would make some games impossible and up the difficulty of everything else several times over.

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ilyich
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2014 4:49 am

Re: XL, 2DS, New 3DS, etc

Post by ilyich » Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:34 pm

Wolf wrote: 6) I don't see how everyone having a pc is relevant. Unless you are saying people should use the current capture program to play the game which is a terrible experience as it isn't designed for that. The feed records with a considerable amount of lag added and trying to react to images as you see them on the pc with the current mod would make some games impossible and up the difficulty of everything else several times over.
I'm sorry... You're joking right? Have you used the current solution? Because the "delay" is basically non existent. It's good enough to play games like Monster Hunter from the viewer software and not have any issues, even on an IPS display. That's not exactly a turn based game. TVs will always have higher response times.

BladeCrossEXE
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Re: XL, 2DS, New 3DS, etc

Post by BladeCrossEXE » Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:48 pm

Not trying to be rude, guys, but is this the proper thread for this discussion? I thought this thread was made to relate to the current status of the upcoming XL and N3DSXL capture boards. Don't technical discussions go in another thread?

Wolf
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Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:15 pm

Re: XL, 2DS, New 3DS, etc

Post by Wolf » Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:21 pm

ilyich wrote:
Wolf wrote: 6) I don't see how everyone having a pc is relevant. Unless you are saying people should use the current capture program to play the game which is a terrible experience as it isn't designed for that. The feed records with a considerable amount of lag added and trying to react to images as you see them on the pc with the current mod would make some games impossible and up the difficulty of everything else several times over.
I'm sorry... You're joking right? Have you used the current solution? Because the "delay" is basically non existent. It's good enough to play games like Monster Hunter from the viewer software and not have any issues, even on an IPS display. That's not exactly a turn based game. TVs will always have higher response times.
It is several frames of added lag which is far more than a digital video to digital video solution. It makes games based on reaction times (almost all of them) significantly harder and seriously detracts from the enjoyment of playing games. It is incredibly inferior to a direct video out mod.

Sultan Samurott

Re: XL, 2DS, New 3DS, etc

Post by Sultan Samurott » Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:27 pm

So, if you will have those cap cards likely around the end of the month, does this mean orders for the old 3DS will open around then as well?

Sultan Samurott

Re: XL, 2DS, New 3DS, etc

Post by Sultan Samurott » Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:27 pm

So, if you will have those cap cards likely around the end of the month, does this mean orders for the old 3DS will open around then as well?

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desocietas
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Re: XL, 2DS, New 3DS, etc

Post by desocietas » Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:09 pm

Sultan Samurott wrote:So, if you will have those cap cards likely around the end of the month, does this mean orders for the old 3DS will open around then as well?
I'm assuming you're referring to Loopy's original post from 2014. No timeline has been offered yet for any of the boards nor restocks. Last we heard, he had a shipment of boards for 3DSXL but needed to work on the software side before selling.

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